Refusing to adhere to what he termed “binary” political narratives, Dimon positioned himself as a policy “realist” rather than a partisan. While he acknowledged the necessity of strict border control, he expressed significant discomfort with the current climate of enforcement and rhetoric. He’s not in favor of what the Trump administration is doing, but that doesn’t mean he agrees with the Biden approach either.

“I think we should calm down a little bit on the internal anger about immigration,” Dimon said. On the prospect of mass deportations—often a centerpiece of Trump’s campaign platform—he expressed skepticism regarding the execution and morality of such operations.

“I think rounding up [a] criminal is one thing,” Dimon noted, but he expressed a desire for better data on who is being targeted: “Show me who’s been rounded up. Are they here legally? Are they criminals? But I don’t like what I’m seeing.”

Dimon recounted a private conversation with Trump, suggesting the president’s private views on immigration reform may be more flexible than his public stump speeches suggest. Dimon claimed he urged Trump to pair border security with legal pathways for residents, telling him: “When you get the borders controlled, fix the rest of it,” he remembered telling Trump, meaning a merit-based system and a “path to citizenship for hardworking people.”

Dimon recalled Trump being receptive, saying: “Yeah, more merit-based,” and “absolutely.”

Dimon also noted Trump has acknowledged the economic necessity of immigrant labor in vital sectors. “I’ve heard Trump say … ‘Hey, we need these people,'” noting the essential roles of immigrants in hospitals, hotels, restaurants, and agriculture. Dimon emphasized the majority of these workers are “good people” who “should be treated that way.”

However, Dimon’s call for compassion was paired with a blistering critique of many years of federal handling of the immigration crisis. He said he was still “angry at the Biden administration for what they allowed to happen,” when deportations dropped and illegal entries surged, arguing the lack of border control has “severely damaged our country.” He reiterated a fundamental stance that countries “have to control their borders or they will cause huge problems,” pointing to migration struggles across Europe as a warning.

Despite these challenges, Dimon argued the U.S. retains a distinct advantage over Europe: the desire of immigrants to assimilate.

“In America, most people coming to America want to be American,” he said. “They come to work, they can’t wait to become a citizen of the United States of America. That’s not true for most of the European immigration.”

Throughout the discussion, Dimon pushed back against attempts to categorize his views as purely “Trumpian,” on the one hand, “liberal,” on the other, criticizing the media for seeking black-and-white answers to complex economic and social issues. He maintained that while he disagrees with Trump on tariffs and rhetoric, he agrees with the need for border security, provided it is accompanied by policies that recognize economic realities.

“I’m a realist, and I like facts and detail and not binary sh-t that goes on all the time,” he said.

For this story, Fortune journalists used generative AI as a research tool. An editor verified the accuracy of the information before publishing.