Dimon, the longtime JPMorgan Chase chief who is widely regarded as the most influential banker in the world, has sharpened his criticism of U.S. fiscal policy as the gross national debt has surged to roughly $38.4 trillion.

“You can’t just keep borrowing money endlessly,” he said in recent comments, warning the debt is “going to bite” at some point. He noted the government is adding approximately $2 trillion to that total every year and predicted it will exceed $40 trillion soon. Dimon was blunt with Rubenstein about the long-term viability of this spending: “It will not work eventually. I just don’t know when that is.”

“Like most problems,” Dimon said in September, “it’s better to deal with it than let it happen.” He has also described the U.S. as “going broke slowly” and compared the nation’s fiscal trajectory to driving toward a cliff at 60 miles per hour, saying the danger is visible but policymakers are failing to hit the brakes.

Federal borrowing has accelerated under both parties, with the Joint Economic Committee noting the debt has risen by an average of about $8 billion per day over the past year, pushing the burden to more than $112,000 per person. Budget analysts estimate interest payments alone are on track to top $1 trillion in fiscal 2026, crowding out other priorities and making it harder for future Congresses to respond to emergencies.

Despite bipartisan rhetoric about responsibility, Congress has struggled even to pass routine spending bills on time, forcing last-minute deals while the debt keeps climbing. Analysts say this gridlock makes comprehensive reforms—such as overhauling the tax code, adjusting entitlement programs, or adopting binding budget rules—politically difficult even as the math grows more unforgiving.

The other plate

The second “tectonic plate” Dimon identified is the shifting global economic order, where heavy U.S. borrowing, rising interest costs, and fracturing trade relationships are reshaping how capital flows and where companies invest. He described this as the “biggest unknown,” pointing specifically to the war in Ukraine and the strategic alignment of Russia and China, nations that have signaled a desire to “dismantle” the Western system established after World War II. This geopolitical friction exacerbates economic vulnerabilities, particularly regarding supply chains. Dimon lamented the U.S. has become “so reliant on other people, some potential adversaries, for things critical to the security of the United States,” including rare earth minerals and pharmaceutical ingredients. He argued that in this environment “the biggest safe thing to have is the strongest military on the planet”.

Despite the grim forecast, Dimon offered a potential solution: economic growth. He suggested if the U.S. can model a stronger trajectory, it can manage the debt burden, and he cited the stimulus from the One Big Beautiful Bill and the Federal Reserve’s quantitative easing-like activity in the bond market as pro-growth policies. However, he warned the U.S. is hampered by bureaucracy, arguing the country is “slowly going the way [of] Europe,” where policy decisions have caused GDP per person to drop significantly relative to the U.S.

Dimon repeated a piece of advice he often gives: “good policy is free,” citing deregulation and permitting reforms as ways to create jobs and productivity without increasing government spending. He emphasized current “bad policies” regarding education, housing, and immigration disproportionately hurt lower-income Americans.

One of Dimon’s counterparts, Goldman Sachs CEO David Solomon, recently made similar points about the difference between Europe and America.

“Europe trend growth is below 1%,” Solomon told the Goldman Sachs Exchanges podcast on Jan. 20, explaining it has roughly 1% growth, a $20 trillion economy, and 450 million people, versus the 2% growth, $30 trillion GDP, and 330 million-strong population in the U.S. Unlike Dimon, though, Solomon predicted this gap will only grow.

“That gap between the U.S. and Europe will continue to widen,” he said.

For the immediate future, Dimon signaled no intent to step down from JPMorgan Chase, telling Rubenstein he plans to lead the bank for “at least about five more years.” His focus remains on “relentless attention to detail” in management and securing the nation’s economic resiliency.

For this story, Fortune journalists used generative AI as a research tool. An editor verified the accuracy of the information before publishing.